JAD: Just to be sure, we asked Frances Champagne what she thinks of this data. Is that too old?" Maybe they'd try and jump back out, but it was still hot so they'd have to jump back in. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." All these chemicals racing by crashing into it, sticking, and one of the bits that gets covered up is that little bit that makes the proteins that create a maternal instinct. When you explore what makes people tick or how the universe . PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed DESTINY HARRIS: Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. That, in a sort of ass backward way was Michael's question. He was miserable to look at. BARBARA HARRIS: I mean, I'm married to a Black man. Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. PAT: But at that point just two of the six boys were living at home, Brian and Rodney. You know, like if you're abused as a kid, you were more likely to abuse your kid, but still, you got to wonder. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. PAT: And all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives. JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. I initially felt very hopeful and excited about this research because it seems to suggest that a body, one body can respond to an environment and change and be flexible in a way we didn't think was possible. They told me a bunch of these stories, one of them involving, well DESTINY HARRIS: I don't have the biggest boobies in the world. Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. MICHAEL MEANEY: That activates maternal behavior. BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. PAT: And in 1989, when the story we're telling now started, she was living in California, in Orange County. Oh my goodness. That's a lot of people. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Here we have how much they harvested. Inheritance, what you can move on to the next generation and what you can't. A lot of times that's not the case. I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? LATIF: Still, still standing. If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. Researchers have found evidence of structural. How do these simple little traits get passed forward? I do mean that. That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? Right below the headlines says, "Scientist's great discovery which may change us all.". Well, lets not get too excited too fast because we have a story to tell and this tale leaves me a little queasy. ROBERT: Which, when you think about it, it has a very Lamarckian flavor. It says, "Race of Supermen." That's the stuff that makes you you. And they had more. CARL ZIMMER: The right hand had been cut off for microscopic slides. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. But with the midwife toad, the female SAM KEAN: Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along SAM KEAN: And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. Listen Feb 3, 2023 Ukraine: The Handoff Pregnancy, and choice, in a war. And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? Heart disease. Started with the tongue. Your boys will first grow taller and taller for the next few years, and when they get to be about 9, 10 years old, they're going to stop growing just for a few years. His example with humans was a blacksmith. That was amazing. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Yeah, lets read.]. I'm not saying that these women are dogs but they're not acting any more responsible than a dog in heat. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. JAD: It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. JAD: It's off-limits. Just sing. BARBARA HARRIS: A couple of days later, I had already bonded with her so much, it was as if I gave birth to her. Well, it was a zoo where there was all sorts of experiments going on. Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. And that's when things would start to get out of control. MICHAEL MEANEY: So the great rat nightmare comes true where the females become their mothers. And in one day, we can imagine, he gets curious. Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. PAT: Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara BARBARA HARRIS: That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. CARL ZIMMER: You know, the fact is that taking care of animals, trying to keep them alive in a building is not an easy thing, especially if it's 1903. I'm graduating in December. Or does it get passed on such a deep level that doesn't even require teaching? Were just talking about toad, I thought. SAM KEAN: Lamarck, Jean-Baptiste Lamarck. JAD: They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. The results make it probable that our descendants will learn more quickly what we know well, will execute more easily what we have accomplished with great effort, will be able to withstand what injured us almost to the point of death. That's Sam Kean again. And looking at these swings in fortune, Olov realized what he had here was Because with all this data, he and his team could follow families forward in time, through the generations. He thought that you could kind of engineer societies by changing the environment. So we did stop. They could eat twice, three times as much. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. That is impossible, so far as we know, but there seems to be this layer on top of the genes. One time, and I'm on flighter. These people are paying millions of dollars to take care of your children!]. It says, "Race of Supermen." I guess retard. What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA And these things are called, apparently, methyl groups. What's he talking about? I had everybody's abuse on my back and I didn't care how we said it, or how we did it. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It's not very politically correct, huh? OLOV BYGREN: The results are quite obvious. I'm graduating in December. "To Whom It May Concern, I have been doing very good. LYNN PALTROW: The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. So much can happen after that. Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. A little village? By all accounts a pretty good-looking guy. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? JAD: In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. And you have to bear in mind that at this point, it only had one hand left. Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? Or is it? This, of course, is Destiny. Well think about it, this is nature and nurture slamming into each other. JAD: Do you have any theories for how this tongue is tickling the DNA, or whatever it's doing? Okay, you want to say bye? To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. Where we sought, they will find. SAM KEAN: Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. ROBERT: Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. I went to the hospital and picked him up. I don't like to upset people. All the babies I had seen and all the people that have called me to tell me about their babies that were damaged. ROBERT: And that advantage, whatever it was, because it starts with one individual, and then it gets passed onto the kids, and then onto their kids, it would take a long, long, long time to spread through the whole population because, generally, that's how evolution works. I think all parents do this, is that you slip into this Lamarckian delusion that What you do with your kids can somehow rewrite all of that. No, she was an oops kid. PAT: And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. Do you know anything about the other four? SAM KEAN: And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. And all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives. CARL ZIMMER: You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. Which I find kind of hard to believe but, then again, I must have read at least 100 news articles as I was reporting this story. Were there any consequences? So here's what you're going to notice. PAT: Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. He's not even eating at all. And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. The show in in the radiolab eye sky transcript of was interested in his life In And bring the eye Amount of long-distance Runners and they had a Radiolab podcast about it and they. Really slowly, gradually, achingly slowly. by Nolan Moore. PAT: Watching this, I couldn't help but think that Destiny's very existence is probably the most interesting argument against what Barbara is doing. I had a little basketball for her. Very easily. But it failed. Let me say this again. Barbara Harris. Its a terrible thought! What exactly happens between 9 to 12 that makes this big difference? The way she saw it, the state, the federal government, somebody Should say, "You're not doing this. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. We neuter them.". PAT WALTERS: Mamaw was the one I'd come to see. Sample Page; ; In my naive mind, I didn't have a clue what a big deal this was. JAD: That's against the rules. He was miserable to look at. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations._Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. JAD: What you see in the records, is that one year PEJK MALINOVSKI: 100 liters. Or is it? LULU: In a very real way, we've been thinking a lot about inheritance. Instead of dying at 40, I'd live to 70? PAT: The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". VERONICA ZIMMER: My name is Veronica Zimmer. JAD: I want to start with a parental day dream for a second. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. [laughs]. Or is it? DESTINY HARRIS: Not been born at all. In any case, what they saw at the end of all this counting wasWell, first of all, what they saw was this pattern that rat pups who got licked a lot as babies, when they grew up, they licked their babies a lot and the rat pups who didn't get licked a lot, when they grew up, they didn't lick their babies. If . But a year later, the social worker called again. You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. Radiolab: Parasites Transcript For copyright reasons we can't provide a transcript of the WNYC Radiolab feature on parasites. ROBERT: But the results are very clear. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. SAM KEAN: Except he had one. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. CARL ZIMMER: He's not just talking about toads anymore, he's gone way beyond toads. These women don't just have one and two babies. A couple of days later, I had already bonded with her so much, it was as if I gave birth to her. CARL ZIMMER: That's the kind of guy he is. Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. PAT: Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. 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