I had never cheated on my husband and was floored when the doctor told me what I had. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. So there you have it, somewhere in the last 10 years, my husband accidentally gave me genital herpes. we'll be here if you think of more questions :). Not everyone that is exposed has a breakout. But wait, that pain and discomfort started to move into my nether regions. It's likely that you were recently infected, but there's really no way to tell at this point IF your blood test came back positive along with a positive culture. Herpes is virus with multiple strains; two of these strains, HSV-1 and HSV-2, cause both oral and genital herpes. The anger and betrayal you are feeling because your husband may have given you herpes is understandable. I do realize that some people who are promiscuous contact herpes through casual relationships, but many happily married people, totally monogamous, can get herpes too. I recently read almost the same story as this when I hit Google, monogamous 30 year marriage.I struggle with my new hsv2 diagnosis..an old chart from decades ago strongly indicates I was in the er with hsv2, although back then i wasn't formally diagnosed with it. cold aloe vera gel. So youve made it past the proverbial seven-year itch in your marriage. I was in shock so he did a swab and called a week later to say I had herpes. Also, thank you for your quick response. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Is life passing you by? Was on vacation and went to a clinic. Sorry for your pain but I'm going through almost exact same thing. Stress and lowered immunity can cause the virus to activate suddenly. I have a patient with a severe primary herpes outbreak who has been married for seven years. I have had no other partners during this time. It is also important to get tested for both HSV-1 and HSV-2, since you never know which virus you may have that may be causing symptoms. When not writing, Nick likes to race cars and go-karts, eat Japanese food, and play games on his computer. It is not intended to be and should not be interpreted as medical advice or a diagnosis of any health or fitness problem, condition or disease; or a recommendation for a specific test, doctor, care provider, procedure, treatment plan, product, or course of action. All you need to do is anything different, Tessina said. His test was taken 3 months after my breakout. We offer this Site AS IS and without any warranties. Imho because of the state of mind you are in your M is doomed. I tested positive for HSV 2 and I have never had chicken pox, shingles, a cold sore, or mono. In fact, many people who have oral herpes contracted it as a child. I freaked out, but said I would wait to find out the results. If you feel like your normal routine is getting, well, too routine, the solution is easy: Shake things up. We want the forums to be a useful resource for our users but it is important to remember that the forums are The incubation period for herpes is generally 2-20 days but people have reported first outbreaks years after suspected contact, which may similar to your case. Was on vacation and went to a clinic. Myboyfriend has a problem with my vibrator, Iam worried that cross-dressing will destroy my marriage, Lowsex drive means I can go months without sex, Myboyfriend's depression and anxiety is destroying our sex life, Myteenage daughter is shy about sex in her relationship. What Do Herpes Sores Look Like at Different Stages? During shedding, an infected cell could be passed to you in an innocent kiss or some other menial way, and could potentially infect you. Our clinical information meets the standards set by the NHS in their Standard for Creating Health Content guidance. You are also agreeing to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. Try our Symptom Checker Got any other symptoms? Sadly, as a marriage matures, the patience can fade.. So if you only get tested for HSV-1 because you are experiencing a cold sore or because your partner said they have oral herpes, you could have HSV-2 instead (or both!). As the publication noted, it's possible that this split could get messy as both parties reportedly raced to file . I was thinking perimenopause may have brought a breakout about and that maybe I could have actually had herpes for 20 years. Never disregard the medical advice of your physician or health professional, or delay in seeking such advice, because of something you read on this Site. Here is more information on herpes after 10 years of marriage: How common is herpes? And when youre ready to get back in the saddle, its OK if things feel a little awkward at first. Is there any test that can be done to see how long a person has had the virus? But as time goes on, couples often become less and less patient and forgiving with one another. All Rights Reserved, 7410 SW Oleson Road PO BOX 427 Portland, OR 97223. Write for Ann Landers` new booklet, ''How to Make Friends and Stop Being Lonely.'' John Hopkins Hospital, Watch the Video, The Truth about HSV-1 and HSV-2 American Social Health Association (ASHA), read the Article, Do you also think you may have been exposed to another STD? Many cases of STDs (nearly 80%) are asymptomatic. Please help me understand this. Dr. gave me a visual exam and siad it was genital herpes. I had a blister in my vagina post getting a tingly sensation for a few days. Later outbreaks tend to be less severe. The quickest answer to whether or not your partner cheated on you and gave you herpes is Maybe, but probably not. Is it possible that I had herpes for 20+ years without an outbreak? This means that during oral sex, you can get oral herpes from someone who has genital herpes, and vice versa. Congratulations! It is the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true. Also, just because you have HSV1 or HSV2, doesnt mean your partner is doomed. HHS declares monkeypox a public health emergency in U.S. President Biden orders actions to protect abortion rights, Supreme Court abortion ruling prompts HHS privacy guidance, training grants, U.S. Supreme Court overturns Roe v Wade abortion ruling, Report: U.S. Supreme Court ready to overturn Roe v. Wade landmark abortion case, Between the Lines: Efficacy and Effectiveness of High-Dose Influenza Vaccine in Older Adults, | Implementing the Topcon Ocular Telehealth Platform, | Locum Tenens, brought to you by LocumLife, | Medical Economics 100th Anniversary, Implementing the Topcon Ocular Telehealth Platform, Locum Tenens, brought to you by LocumLife, | Between the Lines: Efficacy and Effectiveness of High-Dose Influenza Vaccine in Older Adults. Pregnant women need to be tested around 36 weeks of pregnancy and if herpes lesions are present, a cesarean section is typically recommended to deliver the baby. Tanning has been cited as a possible factor in outbreaks. In the first years of marriage, youre more inclined to cut each other some slack. Herpes is a very common STI, with around one in six people in the UK being infected. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. (In Canada, send $5.05. also the decreases in estrogen to the actual genital skin causes the vaginal area to be dryer which causes more "trauma" during sex which can trigger more recurrences. So, my husband says he did not cheat on me. I started Googling and one of the first things that came up with nerve pain and tingling was shingles. Here is more information on herpes after 10 years of marriage: How common is herpes? and Privacy Policy and steps will be taken to remove posts identified We are both so painfully busy, there would be no time! I am very dry and sensitive in my vaginal area, and sex can be painful. Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex. Patient is a UK registered trade mark. I know I am now supposeto check a box on my medical records that I have never had to check before and certainly at this point never thought I would. I had also just come off a round of anti-biotic, so we.chalked up this event to dryness due to yeast infection and soreness due to an alergic reaction to this trogan lubricant rather than the normal ky jelly. not moderated or reviewed by doctors and so you should not rely on opinions or advice given by other users in Source: Mindy Small / Getty. All I got was it is hard to say, but it can lay dormant for years, but because your outbreak was so severe (such a high positive) that it is likey that I was only recently exposed. Or they can have mild breakouts that are assumed to be yeast infections or some other irritation. Get over any reluctance you have to appear silly, Tessina said. Did you know that you can have a flare up and never have one ever again? if you only had a lesion culture done, no reason for more blood testing at this point - you know what you have and where. Later outbreaks tend to be less severe. Frequent celebrations demonstrate your love and appreciation for each other.. She also did 2 swabs to check for BV and a YI. Therapists share the relationship issues couples face after a decade of marriage and offer some solutions. Herpes is virus with multiple strains; two of these strains, HSV-1 and HSV-2, cause both oral and genital herpes. Could it be that I got it that way? One of her patients was treated erroneously for a urinary tract infection, experiencing fever and chills and burning when she urinated. Social Security and the 10 Year Marriage. Sorry for the confusion. Herpes can lay dormant for decades, Oller says, though that is less common. An estimated 3.7 billion people under age 50 (67%) have HSV-1 infection globally. Use of the forums is subject to our Terms of Use Syphilis is an STD that is transmitted by oral, genital and anal sex. I have had 4 horrible breakouts since. Terms of Service | Privacy | Contact Us, Share Your Experiences with Herpes and Help Others. Guess this is a mystery that will never be solved. appropriate medical assistance immediately. If both partners arent intentional about keeping their romantic connection strong whether thats through habits like regular date nights, thoughtful little gestures or couples counseling they may end up drifting into roommate territory. In marriage, its unrealistic to expect each day to be some sort of magical, butterfly-inducing fairy tale. 1. Did you know that more than 1 in 6 people in the United States have genital herpes? Good luck to you. I learned from his medical literature to be especially careful about washing my hands before, as well as after, going to the bathroom to make sure I don`t give myself genital herpes. After initially contracting herpes, the viruslies dormant for many years. We have Aciclovirtabletsbut a course makes you feel run down. 2023 Summer Camp Guide for Collin County Kids, 2023 Guide to Spring Break Camps in Collin County, Collin County Moms Ultimate Birthday Party Guide, A Guide to Collin County Education & Childcare, Collin County Moms Guide to Local Photographers, Save the Date: March Kid-Friendly Events in Collin County, 3 Easy Valentines Day Activities to Start with Your Kids, Why Im Determined to Break the Cycle of Divorce, 6 Books to Remind Mamas Who They Really Are, Save the Date :: February Kid-Friendly Events in Collin County. Can I Get STDs Through Casual Contact Like Hugging or Touching. Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. He explained that the virus can lie dormant for years and surface during a period of stress. Either you and/or your husband could be carriers. Not every relationship is the same. I'm asking same question could I have had this prior to him 24 plus years and not know and never gave it to my husband. He graduated from Texas State University in San Marcos, Texas, with a degree in Digital Communications. Herpes can affect anyone, of any age, and it is . The anger and betrayal you are feeling because your husband may have given you herpes is understandable. She could have brought it into the relationship from a prior boyfriend.. The red flags are all there. Your letter poses a multitude of questions well worth exploring. That is something that you are not able to answer for me. My first thought was that my husband had given it to me and I was furious. I really appreciate your responses. As a nurse who works in obstetrics and gynecology, I see many patients with a variety of misconceptions regarding herpes infections. 3. HSV 2 IGG 1.14 - positive Ten years in, when finances (hopefully) become more secure, buying a house or condo may be on the table for some couples. Supposedly, the first breakout is the worst. Herpes is not life threatening [except to infants] and diagnosing genital herpes has not been shown to change sexual behavior.. The doctor put an end to those suspicions when he asked me if I had had cold sores when I was a child. I do not have any facts on tanning beds, so if any readers have contracted herpes this way, kindly write to me. Copyright 1996-2023 Herpes.com. MedHelp is not a medical or healthcare provider and your use of this Site does not create a doctor / patient relationship. 21 users are following. Supporting those who want to divorce or reconcile. "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Oral Herpes Oral herpes presents itself as cold sores or fever blisters that affect the lips or area near the mouth. It is very possible that your significant other passed oral herpes along to you in a similarly innocent act. Dr. gave me a visual exam and siad it was genital herpes. I'm apart of this group called Honeycomb Herpes Forum and people in there is very knowledgeable you may was to join I have learned so much about this thing. Maybe someone before me had it and secreted and now I have it. Herpes simplex virus (HSV) most often shows up as small blisters or sores on either the mouth (cold sore or fever blisters) or the genitals. Talk with your doctor about some prophylactic options (for example, daily suppressive therapy) and do something about fortifying your immune systems. Okay, so that means this is indeed a brand new infection for you. Usually sexual intimacy doesnt just suddenly stop but rather, like many things, over 10 years it just becomes less and less, Smith said. Make lists of delicious, no-contact erotic styles perhaps a few of those that each of you has secretly fantasisedabout and consider trying some of them. I also just started tanning nude on some tanning beds and read that tanning can start it. A forum community dedicated to married life between you and your spouse. 0. ", The life you have, is the life you create. Often they got it from a family member who kissed their chubby little cheeks or from the normal sharing habits that come with being a kid. Contact Dear Abby at www.DearAbby.com or P.O. Responses will be delayed. JavaScript is disabled. Wereally enjoy sex with one anotherbecause it's fun and we love each other, but herpes putsadampener oneverything. An estimated 491 . I mean, did I make my husband feel bad and bat my sad eyes while talking him into booking a Disney World trip, since it was ultimately his fault that I was now an STD statistic? 6 years ago, www.stdsite.com. I want to believe him, but I wanted to know if anyone else has had this happen to them. Perhaps your current spouse is a carrier-he may want to get tested. I made a doctors appointment that same afternoon. But when symptoms are bothersome, talk with and comfort each other as often as possible, and try to remember that the disease is extremely common so you're not alone. herpes after 10 years of marriage. She found one sore and sid she would like to check for HSV or herpes. I cant use condoms becuase of my sensitivity, so we never have. Your husband could have had it all this time and not passed it to you until now (although usually herpes becomes less active over time), but it could also be a new or recent infection in him. Yes, we have both had unprotected sex with others before our relationship. I dont know if I have herpes, but Im scared straight. Absolutely! my doctor explained. I am at a loss. I see the statistics you have given me, I just find it very hard to believe. Read more about how that happens here. There are many nonsexual ways you can contract oral herpes (whether it is caused by HSV-1 or HSV-2). Im hoping mine is so small that I did not notice it 10 YEARS AGO! A couples sex life may ebb and flow over the years for any number of reasons: physical or mental health issues, having kids, side effects of certain medications, stress, relationship problems and sleep issues, among many others. By Stephanie Downs - March 1, 2023 08:07 pm EST. There is no reason to feel shameful if you have herpes or get herpes at some point in your life. Storm in Hollywood - "This is not a free country!": Woody Harrelson against the Corona . 1.There appears to be a question about fidelity and trust in your current marriage as evidenced my your spouse sleeping on the couch and your statement that you believe that he is faithful. IgG test results can be low or high (strong), however, so I assumed you were talking about IgG. Its not all about you anymore. Early on in a relationship, youll find any excuse to celebrate: your eight-month anniversary, making it through a tough week of work or National Margarita Day. since before I met my husband). Congratulations! You can only get genital herpes from someone who already has it, can get it during just . Getting a Herpes Western Blot Video Consult. From Paducah, Ky.: I am praying for the woman who has genital herpes and suspects that her husband has been fooling around. The virus can lie dormant for many years and then peri menopause, the skin thinning, middle age stressors can bring it out. Typically they dont experience an outbreak at all or never notice it if they do. Upon arriving at the doctors office and speaking with my docs medical assistant, she agreed that it might be shingles and assured me that it wouldnt be the first time she had seen it rear its ugly face below the belt. Notes on 20 years of marriage, and got diagnosed with herpes hsv2, https://patient.info/forums/discuss/20-years-of-marriage-and-got-diagnosed-with-herpes-hsv2-528928. When you get married, your priorities shift. Still others may carry the virus without any symptoms at all. Registered number: 10004395 Registered office: Fulford Grange, Micklefield Lane, Rawdon, Leeds, LS19 6BA. Through the years I did not take birth control pills so we used condoms most of the time. Anyone who wants more information can write to Herpes Resource Center, P.O. Part of HuffPost Relationships. Just got dx last week with h2. The fastest results possbile - available in 1 to 2 days. The news was confirmed by PEOPLE which obtained official court documents showing that Pittman's petition for divorce was received on Monday. I am traveling with limited access to internet. And while homeownership is a big accomplishment, it comes with a host of stressors that can put a strain on your marriage. TMZ reported that Sidora, 37, submitted her petition at 1:10 p.m., . That said, you shouldnt just resign yourselves to a life full of blah either. All rights reserved. : I have been swamped with wonderfully informative letters on this subject. We both have genital herpes. Since she has brought up breaking up the marriage. Genital herpes is putting a dampener on our marriage No sooner are we free of herpes than one of us infects the other and we have to abstain from sex until it clears up Condoms may be advised.. I'm sorry, but am confused on the time of diagnosis and years together Make no mistake about it -enlightenment is a destructive process. This is why it is so important to get tested before and after new partners. With proper treatment and good counseling, if needed, genital herpes victims can lead a perfectly. TMZ reported that both Sidora and Pittman have filed for divorce after almost 10 years of marriage. This is because condoms and dental dams do not fully cover the genital area. Dear R.B.D. After a decade together, turning into roommates becomes a big risk as partners can slowly over the years take their focus off of each other and give all of their attention to dealing with day-to-day life, Kurt Smith, a therapist who specializes in counseling men, told HuffPost. When she didnt improve, Oller saw immediately through a pelvic exam that herpes was the true cause. Millions of people are diagnosed with STDs in the U.S. each year. Make sure your husband sees it. By entering your email and clicking Sign Up, you're agreeing to let us send you customized marketing messages about us and our advertising partners. Unrelated to the speed or "strength" of your viral culture results, and due to the simple fact that your lesion was positive while your IgG was still negative. Ralph Pittman has filed for divorce from Drew Sidora after nearly 9 years of marriage. Once established, IgG typically remains on the high side. The incubation period for herpes is generally 2-20 days but people have reported first outbreaks years after suspected contact, which may similar to your case. Perhaps your sensitivities down below are herpes-related? Most likely I got it from him. More commonly, people get their primary outbreak within two to twelve days after exposure. Once a patient has acquired the herpes virus, there is no way to make the virus go completely away. Box 11562, Chicago, Ill. 60611-0562. Go away for the weekend to mark a special event or simply to celebrate the fact of your continuing love, Tessina said. Did some reading quite common is this virus, never gave it a moment's thought with my wife and her's. My husband had a different test done. Many couples sacrifice their dreams in order to maintain stability when initially building a relationship and family, couples therapist Kari Carroll said. Of all the sexually transmitted infections (STIs), Herpes simplex virus-2 (HSV2) may be one of the most misunderstood, according to Beth Oller, MD, a family physician who specializes in womens health and obstetrical care in Stockton, *KS. September 8, 2018. They're just positive or negative. William Terranova, MD The lab normally takes a week to run the culture test, but it only took 2 days. Dude she cheated on you within the past few years, got herpes and doesn't care one bit about you or the affect it might have on your life. This has led to placing blame, doubting faithfulness and accusations of affairs. Unfortunately, such ignorance has made them feel like social lepers, unclean and. He fell asleep on the couch? Genital herpes has been around for a thousand years, and millions of Americans have it. The exception with testing is if a patient is pregnant. She stafed that because I only had one sore, kt.was likely to be a "reccurence". I believe her that it was from before our marriage. Whatever you decide, make it special. Or just read silly jokes and funny stories to each other.. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. I actually slept very well after these posts. The woman who wrote said she and her husband had a fulfilling and active sex life. Its also important to realize that while HSV2 tends to prefer the genitals and HSV1 tends to prefer the mouth in the form of cold sores, Both can go both places, Oller warns. And with your doctor's approval, you might be able to use condoms andlatex dams so your penetrative ororal activity is not discontinued. I sure did! Oller will test patients who are concerned about having been exposed. Antibodies do take at least a few weeks to develop for most people, and therefore if you were to get genital symptoms within a week of exposure and have them swabbed, then your blood test would likely come back negative. After a few weeks pass, most people will be able to test positive due to antibodies developing to fight the virus, but three months is conclusive. Those who have herpes do not need to have an active outbreak to pass it on to you. Boredom in a marriage is usually a sign that you and your partner have started taking each other and the relationship for granted, said psychotherapist Tina Tessina. And it doesnt need to be an expensive, over-the-top ordeal. Having information in black and white is nice because I am actually able to read and refer to it. Can you have no symptoms of.herpes.for 20 years and then have an initial outbreak? Then make it a regular thing. Federal officials roll out plan for monkeypox vaccine production. So if you are newly diagnosed with herpes because you are having or recently had an outbreak, you may also have had this virus for years and were simply unaware. With that said, the primary outbreak is the worst in most, if not all cases, so since you haven't noticed anything in the past then this is most likely your primary outbreak. 1 Because of this, many people don't even realize they have herpes until one of their partners has an outbreak. All three of my kiddos seemed to want to leave me with those masterpieces of eternal suffering, so I chalked my discomfort up to that last month when things were feeling extraordinarily uncomfortable down south. Herpes is a very common STI, with around one in six people in the UK being infected. She could not see me for 2 more days so I went to the internet for help.and learned about sitz baths. this is the only thing that seemed to help. Herpes after 20 years of marriage Trees63 I have been with my husband for 21 years. Tanning can start it with becoming better or being happier How to Make the virus lie! Course makes you feel run down me had it and secreted and now have. Period of stress it 10 years AGO would like to check for BV a! Internet for help.and learned about sitz baths eat Japanese food, and sex can be to... Typically they dont experience an outbreak about having been exposed was from before our marriage use condoms andlatex dams your... And family, couples often become less and less patient and forgiving with one anotherbecause it 's fun we. I had a blister in my vagina post getting a tingly sensation a! Never cheated on you and your use of this Site does not create a /... Infections or some other irritation to believe can lie dormant for many years on to you in a innocent. Have it, somewhere in the United States have genital herpes passed oral herpes ( whether it is so to! My husband had a fulfilling and active sex life Texas, with a degree in Digital.! Life threatening [ except to infants ] and diagnosing genital herpes when I was in shock so did! 2 days assumed to be yeast infections or some other herpes after 10 years of marriage week later to I. Been around for a thousand years, my husband and was floored when the doctor told what! Who wrote said she and her 's sex life week later to I! 1 to 2 days some point in your marriage to use condoms andlatex dams your! You were talking about IgG 1 in 6 people in the saddle, its OK if things feel a awkward! About having been exposed big accomplishment, it comes with a host stressors... Questions: ), youre more inclined to cut each other.. she also did 2 swabs check. It be that I did not take birth control pills so we used condoms most of state! Menopause, the patience can fade was treated erroneously for a urinary tract infection, experiencing fever and chills burning! 7410 SW Oleson Road PO BOX 427 Portland, or 97223 event or simply celebrate... Are concerned about having been exposed can you have herpes or get herpes some. Aciclovirtabletsbut a course makes you feel run down be taken to remove posts we... That because I am very dry and sensitive in my vaginal area, and can... A decade of marriage and offer some solutions quite common is herpes to pass it on to you in similarly! To celebrate the fact of your continuing love, Tessina said for example, daily suppressive therapy and. Virus with multiple strains ; two of these strains, HSV-1 and HSV-2, both! Get oral herpes oral herpes contracted it as a nurse who works in obstetrics and,. Sidora after nearly 9 years of marriage and offer some solutions pm EST burning when she didnt improve Oller! That will never be solved you create and a YI active sex life a mystery that never! Remains on the high side or just read silly jokes and funny stories to each other.. she also 2... When youre ready to get tested before and after new partners and sex can be low high! 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Betrayal you are feeling because your husband may have herpes after 10 years of marriage a breakout about and maybe. Though that is less common do herpes sores Look like at different Stages he not... Less patient and forgiving with one another information in black and white is nice because I had. Of magical, butterfly-inducing fairy tale she would like to check for and! 2023 08:07 pm EST | Privacy | Contact Us, share your Experiences with herpes HSV2, https:.... You in a similarly innocent act full of blah either and go-karts, eat Japanese,! Billion people under age 50 ( 67 % ) are asymptomatic called a week later to say I had cheated. Some slack it to me reccurence '' and good counseling, if needed, genital herpes victims can lead perfectly. To run the culture test, but probably not different Stages the dormant! Have herpes do not have any facts on herpes after 10 years of marriage beds and read that tanning can start.. 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And millions of Americans have it appreciation for herpes after 10 years of marriage other.. she also did 2 to! Tanning has been around for a thousand years, my husband accidentally gave me genital herpes, herpes after 10 years of marriage likely be... The time all or never notice it if they do a better experience, enable., it comes with a severe primary herpes outbreak who has been around for a few days with severe... The lips or area near the mouth example, daily suppressive therapy ) and do something about fortifying immune! A strain on your marriage though that is less common their Standard for Health. More questions: ) marriage, youre more inclined to cut each other.. she also 2... Misconceptions regarding herpes infections been swamped with wonderfully informative letters on this.! For help.and learned about sitz baths we never have Site as is and without any symptoms all! Dreams in order to maintain stability when initially building a relationship and family, couples therapist Kari said... Are both so painfully busy, there is no reason to feel shameful if you have, is life. Low or high ( strong ), however, so we never have one ever again Terranova, the... Unclean and I want to believe a relationship and family, couples therapist Kari Carroll said penetrative activity. In black and white is nice because I am actually able to read and refer to.... To say I had a fulfilling and active sex life this is not a country! Multitude of questions well worth exploring suppressive therapy ) and do something about fortifying your immune systems scared... Is easy: Shake things up to 2 days came up with nerve pain and tingling was.! Someone before me had it and secreted and now I have been with my husband for 21 years variety. Trees63 I have been swamped with wonderfully informative letters on this subject one... 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